"In God We Trust" What Harm?
A discussion from Facebook started by a local radio host out of Pittsburgh posed the question, which several of his listeners danced around...:
(I jumped in late. Just scroll down...)
(I jumped in late. Just scroll down...)
Harold A Shaver The founding father agruement does really go that far..they beleived in blood letting and if was a short time prior to that Jonathan Edwards and his fellow puritans were stoning people for impure thoughts. The wisdom of the founding fathers comes inthe form that ALL people must have equal treatment ...treatment in a form that does not promote one's beliefs over the beliefs of another....so if you cant allow all faiths equality you cant cater to one....no matter what the majority thinks....Why is this important?In the short term it may not but what if the future Mulism beliefs become the majority view in America and that majority decides that all other belief systems need to be silenced? It is not always about today and the belief that things could never take a bad left trurn ( well they did take a bad left turn in 2008 and it will take the GPS of wisdom to get us back on the RIGHT road) ...it is about the future of all belief systems today and tomorrow
Ned Twyman Also Peter, ever hear the important democratic principle of the minority not being subjected to the tyranny of the majority? I didn't think so. Perhaps you should educate yourself to it before shooting of your mouth and revealing your ignorance in such a public forum. You're welcome.
- Harold A Shaver I am off to smoke a cigar and read some John Adams.....everyone enjoy Easter and hope that Cthulhu remains napping
Peter Francis I don't have to convince anyone, Twyman, and I do go to church. My point, which you miss, is that YOUR group tries to tie-in the rock-chiseling of In God We Trust, Ten Commandments on the wall, Nativities on the Court House square, as a validation of the religion and that, of course, means that there is also a law proclaiming a state religion. There isn't. The Establishment Clause was to prevent the government of the United States from creating a state religion, as was in England.
John Stokan the chiseling was done years ago from our forefathers philosophies...its you seculars that keep bitching about these things- Harold A Shaver Well said Peter and that is the point that needs driven home....all religions or no religions need to be recognized
Coral Reef I don't really care if the Ten Commandments are engraved into some building, it isn't hurting anyone. Just keep that crap out of science class.
- Ned Twyman Aside from that being the LEAST funny "comedian" I have ever had the acute displeasure of watching he totally misreads, misunderstands, and mistakes what atheists think. He sucks. Hard. He will never be anything more than a fringe performer.
- Ned Twyman Stokan, we are talking about what the Washington County commissioners are CURRENTLY wasting everyone's time and money on. The public sphere is NOT the place for religion. That doesn't mean atheists are preventing anyone from practicing their religion. The sooner you nuts realize this, the better off you will all be. It is only going to get worse for you I'm afraid.
- Peter Francis The sooner that you atheist nuts realize that religion has just as much right to the public place as non-religion, the better off YOU will be. Your efforts to secure public places from religious influence tends to secure them OF religion. Big difference and THAT is the argument.
- Ned Twyman Religion is rapidly losing sheep while agnosticism is rapidly gaining people. Much like the Republican Party, changing demographics are spelling your doom. Couldn't happen to a more self-righteous, intolerant, and self-deluded bunch. What is "non-religion"? I will ask again, why is it so important to you that everyone acknowledge YOUR God? Why can't you just practice your faith and leave the rest of us rational people alone?
David Rocchini There is absolutely no argument against the fact that our country was founded on Christianity and the courts have long allowed religion to be mixed with government.- Ned Twyman "The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Religion." ~ John Adams He was a founding father right David Rocchini?
- John Stokan ned, are you always this condescending and arrogant, or do you just perform for facebook?
- Ned Twyman How am I, or anyone else for that matter, trying to "influence" your ability to worship or acknowledge any God you wish?
- Ned Twyman Just giving back what I get John Stokan. I'm just better at it than most of these hillbillies.
- Ned Twyman Public buildings belong to all of us, not just the religious. Put your displays on your own property.
- Ned Twyman Because the minority should never be subject to the tyranny of the majority. Thus, the first amendment. Even minorities have rights Muchael.
- John Stokan ned, when you see some sort of religious display or quote on a public building, how does it effect you...do you have a breakdown, does it make you nervous, do you weep? what?
- David Rocchini Ned you find one quote and you think you're right. I can find about 1000 instances of government acknowledging religion now and at the time of our founding. Your ignorance is amazing.
- Ned Twyman What is s-p rap? I'm not a rap fan. But I always hated Prog. Of course it's just my opinion and I'm just giving you a hard time John.
- Ned Twyman My ignorance? Ha! You said that our country was founded on Christianity. I, and John Adams disagree and he was there, so try again doofus. You're obviously wrong on this point.
- John Stokan lol...I know....actually you love jethro tull...theyre coming to Pittsburgh in October...im surprised Anderson can still stand much less perform
- Ned Twyman There is also that pesky first amendment. And you would think that if the founders wanted Christianity to be an important part of our government that it or Hod would be mentioned in the constitution instead of preemptively prohibited. But hey, that's just me and my ignorance talking now.
- David Rocchini So there was only one founding father? Yeah that's what I thought. Get a real argument and then try again.
- David Rocchini Also the establishment clause was meant so that there would not be an established church. Not so there wouldn't be any religion in public. Also being founded on Christianity and having an established church are two different things.
- John Stokan ask Jefferson, franklin, and Madison about that...there is a ton of documentation acknowledging the need for religion as I pointed out in my very first comment
- Peter Francis Twyman, THIS is where you are wrong -- Public buildings belong to all of us, not just the religious. Put your displays on your own property -- Public buildings belong to ALL, INCLUDING the religious. We are entitled, just as much as anyone else, to put "our" displays on public property.
- Ned Twyman They were deists, sort of like agnostics, but that is all moot because of the first amendment. You can copy and paste quotes all day long and NONE of them would trump the first amendment.
- Ned Twyman No you are not Peter. The SCOTUS have grandfathered in existing ones, but rule against new instances. It isn't the appropriate place for religious displays. Period.
- Peter Francis Oh, I pasted the First Amendment, too. Unfortunately, you can't understand the meaning of it and overlooked it. Not all the FF were deists, not all were religious. Get your facts straight.
- David Rocchini I think I have set them forth in an obvious manner. 1) our country was founded upon Christianity: national days of giving thanks to our creator, presidents saying prayers, our mottos- in God we trust, the fact that the country itself was Christian when...See More
- Ned Twyman Nobody has the right to shove their beliefs down anyone else's throat. That is what you guys are unbelievably arguing for. Fascists.
- Ned Twyman You say our country was founded on Christianity. John Adams said it wasn't. Whom should we believe?
- David Rocchini I'm in no ways arguing for that. I'm just saying the constitution allows instances like "in god we trust," and other mentions of religion. That has been and always will be the case. Majority rules.
- Ned Twyman "1) our country was founded on Christianity."
Sorry but that is EXACTLY what you were arguing for. WTF? - Peter Francis No Christian was trying to force their religion down the throat of non-believers with a morning prayer. Those who did not wish to participate did not have to participate. Instead, the O'Hair woman filed suit to have it removed for EVERYONE because she didn't like it. Not participating wasn't good enough for her.
- David Rocchini I guess I'll explain it again. If the country was founded on Christianity then it makes logical sense to have instances where government and religion are mixed, like the In god we trust motto. And majority does rule when it comes to instances of ceremonial deism which is why the Supreme Court has allowed them.
- Peter Francis This nation was founded on Christian principles. Our legal/justice system have a Christian influence. Yes, Christianity had an influence on this nation. Yes, this nation is a republic and not a theocracy. Yes, there are those revisionists who do not want to believe this.
- Peter Francis http://www.forbes.com/.../was-america-founded-as-a.../
www.forbes.com
Both sides of the debate cherry-pick data to prove exaggerations while discarding inconvenient details. - Ned Twyman I have things to do but this is why we make so little progress in this country. Conservatives want to keep refighting issues that are already settled. Whether it is the ACA now, abortion from the 70s, evolution from the 20s, or freaking separation of church and state that has been settled since the fucking 1780s! You people are maddening. I'm out.
Bryan Spiegel Im glad we solved all those other important things and we can now argue over upholding one world view over another.- Ned Twyman They are for non-superstitious, rational people Michael. Roe v Wade will not be overturned. Neither will the Scopes Monkey Trial verdict. Neither will the ACA. And Christianity will eventually go the way of Jupiter and Zeus. They are just using these as wedge issues to get certain factions (especially the rural poor and middle class) to vote against their own interests. You are the one who needs to get in touch with reality.
Tom Shiel so Ned... There is no seperation of church and state in the constitution even though your argument has been the seperation Clause? Talk about out of touch. Atheist always want to talk about seperation clauser but when asked to provide the statements existence in the constitution they cant do it. Wonder why that is?- Ned Twyman It's all in the first amendment Tom. Thomas Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptists that what the establishment clause does is to "erect a wall of separation between the church and the state". That phrase may not be in the first amendment verbatim, but that, according to Jefferson, was its purpose. I guess some people need it explained more explicitly. You guys for example.
- Ned Twyman Michael Andrew: "I can't wait until Jesus returns to deal out justice to people like you." Yeah Michael, because Jesus was all about vindictiveness, petty revenge, and schadenfreude. You are a bad Christian. Lol!
- Tom Shiel but it is not in the first amendment is it ned. The founding fathers did not put it in there. There was a reason they did not put it in there. I guess Ned Twyman decided that there was a clause in the FIRST AMENDMENT AND WE ALL NEED TO HONOR IT? If we as want to display our religion then we are allowed just like you are allowed to be an atheist because of the first amendment. NoOne, not even the government, can tell us what to do in our communities when it comes to religion.
Alex McDowell Not that there ever has been "equal justice under the law" in this country, but it's what we claim to aspire to. When the religious are considered the only people suitable for election to office or seats on the courts, I would walk into any court in the land and have a strike against me solely for my lack of belief in a myth. When that gawd-awful phrase is etched in stone above the courts, I know that I am not considered a full citizen accorded the same rights as any other. There is an automatic bias built in.
"One nation, under God, indivisible" is a lie. The phrase itself divides.- Tom Shiel so what harm exactly is it doing, other than you feeling like you are not a citizen somehow. Tired of everyone in this country with alterior motives trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us. If you believe that there is no God then i would never tell you to believe otherwise . If the totality of a community felt that way and wanted to put "in science we trust" then that is their right. Just because your "feelings": are hurt does not give you the right to tell the community what to do, especially when you do not live there.
- Alex McDowell It's not about "feelings". It's about equal justice. Look into some of the child custody cases where a pronounced atheist is denied custody solely on the basis of church attendance. Or reduced sentencing on the basis of "finding Jesus". Or the myriad of other imbalances in the justice, education, and financial fields that are built in.
- Tom Shiel there are imbalances in the justice system, not all based on religion. If you want the community to take down a saying because it offends you then that means you are basing your decision on "feelings" not your intellect. You always want to tell others what to do based on your feelings then when it is brought to light you get offended. lol... ytpical
- Alex McDowell Ok. You just denied any validity to my examples or my argument. You refuse to listen? Then we have nowhere to go. I'm telling you that the law is tilted and you think that's okay because it's tilted in your favor. That blindness to the problem, right there, is what we're talking about. The arrogance of the "righteous" that believe this country was designed to protect their personal bigotry.
- Tom Shiel i am not a christian nor religious. i am a firm believer in the constitution. Nowhere in the constitution does it say that the government can tell a community what to believe as far as rteligion goes. i would never think that my view outways the comminity i live in and i have a thick hide.
- Ned Twyman They myopically think that having their religion formally and publicly recognized is part of their freedom to worship. It is crazy.
- Alex McDowell Actually, the Constitution DOES say that communities are obligated to the laws of the federal government.
The fourteenth ammendment, for one. 
- Ned Twyman And I don't want to tell anyone what to do. I just resent having it shoved down my throat by people that claim to love and revere a constitution they clearly can't comprehend on anything more than a one sided level.
- Ned Twyman A community is usually the local government. Governments can't establish religions and endorsing one or certain ones is considering establishing one. Why does it have to be so publicly acknowledged?
- Ned Twyman And nobody is stopping the entire community from going to church and worship. Just don't do it on my dime.
- Tom Shiel Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
- Alex McDowell No, you don't. Not equal due process. Not as long as some judges are free to exact revenge on non-believers.
- Alex McDowell And not as long as they are encouraged by religious commands etched in stone on their court houses.
- Tom Shiel once again. it is the communities right under the first amendment to believe what they want. If you want to start making people bend to you then we no longer live in a free society. Living in a free society is a give and take betweeen belief systems and being tolerant of others beliefs. which you are not being, but you want them to be tolerant of you???
- Alex McDowell I think you are making MY argument. You want the community to decide what I have to believe. You're telling us that the community has the right to make us bend to what they decide is the proper fairy tale. Actually, there are several communities in this country that are getting away with that, to some extent. You might want to look at the Islamic community in Dearborn, Michigan, for instance.
- Alex McDowell One way or the other, every argument you've made is toward the supremacy of the Christian belief in law, and an argument for special preferences and rights for only the Christians. That is, on it's face, a bias in the legal system. And, legality aside, there are MANY reasons why that's a bad idea. And dangerous.
- Alex McDowell Even the religious among the "founding fathers" were aware of the dangers of that. The strongest supporters of "separation of church and state" were religious groups. Among them, the Quakers, the Baptists, and others.
- Alex McDowell Madeleine Murray O'Hair's case against the forced pledge of allegiance was joined by the Jehova's Witnesses, among others.
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