I'm a Racist and a Bigot
(M) A great point.
Thanks to Americans Against The Republican Party for sharing this.
Thanks to Americans Against The Republican Party for sharing this.
Being Liberal Wall Pictures
By: Being Liberal
- 6 people like this.
Alex McDowell It's kind of hard to take her sentiment seriously while she's wearing that thing on her head.
- Alex McDowell The headdress is a symbol of oppression. It's an acceptance of fundamentalist terrorism. She, and all Muslim women are terrorized (forced) into wearing it. Even non-Muslim women who visit theocratic Muslim states. Her point is weakened by the headdress. Destroyed, really.
- Tess Chapeau The hijab is secondary. She's muslim. Sikhs wear headgear, too. What difference should their clothing make?
- Alex McDowell When she can drive through downtown Mecca, by herself, without that thing on her head, and cause no stir, then she may have a case. Ok. Maybe not her. Maybe it's a "choice". When ANY woman can drive through ..etc...
- Tess Chapeau And most religions are sexist and oppressive. But the notion that hijabs are linked to terrorism is ignorant.
- Alex McDowell She would be killed not wearing it in some countries, or shunned by her family, or arrested. Even in the US and Britain, there are consequences among her own community. Therefore, fear. Therefore, force. Therefore, she has been terrorized into wearing it.
- Tess Chapeau Yes. I drove. Not all Islamic countries ban female drivers. Nor do any of them dictate that Muslims plant bombs, or participate in suicide missions.
- Tess Chapeau Instead of getting your information from uninformed people who write OpEds, research what you read.
- Alex McDowell There are "liberal" or "moderate" Islamic countries. We know that. But can you say you did, or could do the same in Riyadh? Khartoum? Tehran? And I'm not picking on Islam. There are sects of Jews that want to rule Israel the same way.
- Tess Chapeau If you want to talk about sexism, that's another issue-and another meme. The meme in the OP is in regard to terrorism, and it applies to just the type of ignorance you're guilty of. Lumping all Muslims together as terrorists.
- Tess Chapeau Yes. Read up on Turkey. I lived in Egypt. There are Muslims living in non-Islamic countries as well, and they drive.
Jesus Christ... - Tess Chapeau I have no patience for racists. And I'd rather have a discussion with anyone other than a racist. Your problem is bigger than religion, Alex. I can't help you.
- Alex McDowell Now, she may be able to toss off the hajib,and drive a car in Riyadh. And do whatever the hell she wants. And all Islamic women may be able to, eventually. But then, we get into the same theological question we have in the west, the same question surrounding the WBC. What's a "true" Christian, or Muslim, or whatever. Because now, you're getting into cherry picking and redefining the texts to suit your own tastes. Not that it's not been done before. There is no "true" religion, and the texts are all vague enough. But, as I said, about ALL religion, it sets the stage, it allows, it demands, that violent, fundamentalists show up. When you can believe the bible in any part, as fact, you can believe ANYTHING. THAT was my point.
- Alex McDowell If you're the Ayatollah, or Rick Warren, from where I sit, and you're both arguing about an indefinable fairy tale, who am I to discern which of you is more "true"?
- Alex McDowell And as a symbol of religion, the head gear is a symbol of terror. ALL religion is. Anytime you have questions of eternal salvation or damnation, you've fallen into the pit. Religion poisons EVERYTHING.
- Alex McDowell I had to check. Atheism hangout...yep.... I'm supposed to not be disrespectful to what I find utterly repugnant? I'm confused.
- Tess Chapeau Alex, there are people in this group with family who are practicing Muslims. I think it's disrespectful to make such a sweeping generalization about them, linking them to terrorists who kill. I won't bother to validate your misinformation anymore.
- Alex McDowell Tess, in consideration of the totality of this convo, I'm flabbergasted. Something here is definitely over someone's head.
- Alex McDowell And, BTW, Turkey is a secular nation. And they have to fight constantly to keep it that way.
Shilo Rives Saying, "that thing" is so uncouth. It reflects the origins of the speaker and gives weight to her statement. I see in your cover photo that you wear a baseball cap. You should remove "that thing" if you want to be taken for more than just an ignorant jock.- Tess Chapeau Alex, Turrkey, while it has a secular government, is almost 90% Muslim. There's your moderate Islamic country you sarcastically asked about. You appear to have no idea of the variations extant in the world around you. Being a little more open minded, a little less absolute, and a lot less xenophobic would go a long way in your understanding of how the world operates.
Michael Thomas jsut a note, polling of westernized moderate muslims (if there is such a thing) in the UK found that a majority support jihad and suicide bombings and terrorist acts in principle and as legitimate acts, regardless of context.. in the pursuit of a muslim global caliphate.
they may not directly physically participate, but they consider it jsut fine.. maybe unfortunate, but allowable. as long as its against infidels.
Just as the koran preaches.- Michael Thomas actually, every religious person is an extremist... in a literal, measurable sense of the word, muslim in particular are father down the extremity scale than just about anyone these days.
we've just redefined "extremist" to mean "person who blows shit up" which is not a realistic definition.
The radical, extreme views of all muslims at their core, the basic tenets of their religion, are so extreme when applied to reality, they all subscribe to extremist beliefs.
That the "inactive" ones support the "active" ones who actually live according to the literal reading of the koran... is perfectly logical given the bullshit they're taught. - Michael Thomas that most christians dont even believe their own shit, or have cherrypicked it to death so much that its not even coherent anymore is a good thing, makes them less extreme...
but your basic run of the mill guilt ridden catholic is still an extremist.
They believe that you are literally drinking the blood and eating the human flesh of a zombie god every sunday. People forget shit like that. - Tess Chapeau You remind me of Fox viewers, who, when proven they're wrong, stubbornly and delusionally cling to their lies.
- Michael Thomas *yawn*
Lazy thinkers who dont read and make excuses for religion are not welcome here. Apologists begone. This is a place for reality. Before you speak to me, you should be better read on the facts. - Tess Chapeau I find fundamentalist atheism/antitheism/neoatheism tiresome.
http://old.richarddawkins.net/discussions/616576-noam-chomsky-on-new-atheists
old.richarddawkins.net
I don't think it's worthwhile to review Hitchens. On "moral equivalence," to my knowledge the concept was concocted, or at least popularized, by Jeane Kirkpatrick, as a way of slandering anyone who dared to raise some objections to the murderous terrorist wars that she was helping to implement as Re... - Tess Chapeau Michael, may I ask why you feel threatened by facts? And why do you feel it necessary to ban people from this group who don't share your opinion, never mind the fact that it's only an opinion, and an inaccurate one at that?
You obviously feel uncertain , but why don't you just do some research? It would take you less time than it did to write the comments you posted.
Just a couple of questions I have. Your anger seems a bit over the top... - Alex McDowell Tess, what are your "facts"? I told you that Turkey was struggling to stay as a nominally sectarian country. You come back and say it is a moderate Muslim country. You may have wanted to ignore what the "moderates" have to deal with to keep it so, and what that country is going to look like when they lose. We have Imams in THIS country teaching that the US should be more like Iran.
- Alex McDowell http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm
www.thereligionofpeace.com
� � Does the Quran really contain dozens of verses promoting violence? The Quran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule.� - Alex McDowell http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/koran.html
www.deceptioninthechurch.com
Warning: The following quotes are blasphemous. They are taken from the Koran (translated by N.J. Danwood). By reading these quotes you will have a basic understanding of the Muslim religion, the wars and tension in the Middle East, and the terrorism on September 11: - Alex McDowell http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
en.wikipedia.org
Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ردة riddah, literally means: "relapse" or "regress" ...See More - Alex McDowell Sorry. Between the overwhelming reaction in the Muslim world to the Danish cartoons, and the pictures of celebrations on 9/11 and 7/7, what inference are we supposed to get?
- Tess Chapeau Alex, you are citing sources that don't support your statents about the hijab, nor do they disprove my OP.
Todd Grzech Tess, just to clarify a comment I saw above, no one who has participated in this thread has the power to ban anyone from this group. One member's opinion about who should or should not be allowed to comment is irrelevant. The rules of the group are clearly posted at the top of the page, and the admins are not eager nor willing to remove any member for simply expressing a contradicting opinion. Banning offenses are typically limited to theist trolls, people who personally attack other members rather than argue ideas (after a warning), hate speech, and anyone who blocks an admin.
I just wanted to clarify that so that no one felt they were at risk of being banned for "disagreeing."- Alex McDowell No. I think there are people trying to be "moderate Muslims". Even those that wear what they think they have to. I think there are moderate Christians, even liberal ones. But the holy books don't support them.
- Tess Chapeau Lol. The Boston bomber was reported to the FBI by the Imam of his mosque before he did anything, just on account of the statements he made.
Yes, there are extremists. No, most Muslims don't support terrorism. - Alex McDowell And a Muslim shirt vendor alerted the police to the Times Square bomber. So what? The question is what philosophy or tales brought the bombers to the point of doing what they do?
- Tess Chapeau I'm sorry, but you're paranoid and posted a libertarian link.
Alex, you're wasting your time. I don't hold anything you say to be valid. - Tess Chapeau There were numerous complaints about the instigator of the 2 guys. The older brother raised red flags by things he'd said at services. The FBI had been alerted to his rants before the bombing-by the imam of his mosque.
Stephanie Soressi Alex McDowell - "Race" isn't real, so it can refer to any group of people the speaker wants it to.
You are using semantics to get out of the fact that you are a bigoted fascist every bit as full of illogical hate as was Hitler toward Jews.
I'll bet you do the same with the word Islamphobia -- as though we were actually speaking Greek.
You want to argue semantics? Fine -- then you are an misIslamist bigot, and your thinking is entirely prejudiced & therefore completely invalid.- Stephanie Soressi Tess Chapeau, we need you in leadership! These double-talking anti-theists have pretty much ruined the movement with their sheer hypocrisy. They like to call themselves skeptics but have no clue what the word actually means.
Anti-theists are hypocrites who don't understand how to defend the First Amendment of the U.S., or the same in Int'l law.
Most of them are a-fundamentalists themselves, still acting like fundies in every way. They even read the bible with the same interpretation as fundamentalists. - Tess Chapeau Shit! I deleted my comment about the use of circular rhetoric to prove a point. And my phone isn't letting me "like" your comments.
Will Sawyer I agree with a lot of what you've said Tess, but please don't lump all antitheists together. I'm an antitheist, inasmuch as I think religion is a harmful thing and should be countered. I can agree with your OP and yet still hold that belief. Some of the language and posts in this thread have been ignorant rehashes of the worst type of tabloid journalism...a knee jerk reaction to anything and everything "Muslim". The headscarf on the woman is nothing to do with terrorism, nor is it "ironic" as some said above. Just because some Muslims are terrorists does not mean that any symbol or tradition of Islam is therefore a symbol of terrorism...this is ignorant and unhelpful and antitheists of this type do huge harm to the cause of antitheism. Antitheism and atheism are harmed by intemperate ignorance, so please guys, do some research and use your critical faculties a bit more.- Will Sawyer ...and Stephanie, your own intemperate language doesn't help either. Throwing around "fascist" and generalising about antitheists shows that maybe you need to do some research of your own and learn some moderation.
- Tess Chapeau I can appreciate your distinction, Will. I'm obviously guilty of generalizing about antitheists, and for that I offer my apology. I haven't met any antitheists who are accepting of religion's existence. I am happy to be contradicted in my misunderstanding.
- Tess Chapeau I think Stephanie was calling a spade a spade, however. Michael and Alex have echoed some dangerous sentiments clearly in line with fascist thinking. Calling attention to it shouldn't be white washed. Maybe her approach was spirited, but her intent was sincere-fascism is something that should never be taken lightly, nor does it call for being polite in addressing it.
- Will Sawyer I just disagree that they were "fascist", that's all...that word comes with an awful lot of historical connotations
- Tess Chapeau What I find most disconcerting, is that people who have nothing but dogma in their information banks, consider themselves worthy of disseminating this disinformation into space via so called "blogs" (see Alex's.)
Such blogs are nothing more than self promotional bunk, and hatemongering sensationalism.
They provide little, if anything, and do nothing more than stroke the egos of inadequate writers. - Will Sawyer As an antitheist, I believe religion is positively harmful and I believe that humanity would be better off without it. I would not legislate against it, except in some extreme cases....I would, for instance, like to see all infant genital mutilation made illegal and to see it policed and harshly sentenced against. The arguments need to be put well against religion, with temperance, tolerance and understanding; it must be understood that religion and culture are hugely bound together and to rip into religion in a thoughtless way is like trying to tear out the heart of a culture or a nationality...it can be insensitive and counterproductive, and this is the error so many atheists and antitheists make...they make it almost like a "religion" itself, with its own intolerance of within-group variation.
With regards your OP, I can agree that the sentiment is correct, but I take Sam Harris's line regarding religious "moderates", who can also bear a terrible burden of dogma and bigotry. - Alex McDowell You still haven't made a valid argument that the head gear is not a form of coercion. You have made the point that I'm an idiot. But not the other thing. And I'm still scratching my head over the racism charges. And I get the OP. She's for peace between tribes and against terrorism. Good. That's a good sentiment. I never said it wasn't.
But, at the heart, these holy texts provide the framework where it could be interpreted that violent terrorism is called for by god. And her support of peace does nothing to get at the root of the problem. Which is the religion. Throw that away, and we have no argument over her "choice" of style.
You want "hate mongering sensationalism", I'm not sitting here killing anyone. Your lashing out at me did nothing to convince me of your point. It didn't even go anywhere near explaining it. - Will Sawyer Alex, the OP makes a decent point but you seem to be looking only at the surface, painting a "truth" based on your own prejudice and you completely ignore the fact that this woman is only human. You speak English....did you have a choice about this? You could change and learn Spanish, say, and throw away English, but you don't. To you, English is a useful language, part of your culture, a part of who you are. Even if you believed English to be a bad language, you'd still use it....in the same way, this woman was born into a culture that taught and expected certain things of her. She has no reason to challenge it because she does not want to, because she believes what she was taught and her faith as good. Maybe I could have picked a better analogy than spoken language, but to me it's good enough. This woman simply doesn't agree with you that her headdress is a symbol of oppression...maybe someday she will, but lets be thankful, at least, that she can post something like her OP. Like you, she's not "sitting here killing anyone". Leave her be and let her develop. Encourage her to develop further with kind words, not a verbal acid-in-the-face attack because she is not as far along as you'd like.
I agree with you about the hatred in the Koran, the same kind of hatred that's in the Bible...but these are books that are read (or not), believed (or not) by humans...far from perfect creatures and every one of us has logical incoherences and inconsistencies. It's not fair to expect anyone to get everything right. - Alex McDowell I sincerely doubt that Yasira has even seen this thread, or is anyway aware of it. And I haven't made any accusations of her killing anyone. I'm saying that the head gear is a symbol of coercion. To have someone made aware of that possibility is now a racist and hateful act? To posit the question?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPuS9-IhpPs&feature=youtu.be
Sam Harris makes an excellent analogy to illustrate how ridiculous the argument of fundamentalism is when defending religion. - Will Sawyer No, it's not racist or hateful to point it out , just maybe a skewing of what the OP was about, and not something that I think deserves the attention you seem to think it warrants. It's a symptom of a disease, not the disease itself, and the symptom will go away if the disease is successfully treated. I think it's more helpful to be encouraged that Muslims think like the OP, rather than attacking them because they're not up to your own level of enlightenment yet. Whether she wears the headdress or not, it doesn't change the OP.
- Alex McDowell I'm aware that the Christian west has not been kind to Islam in history (and vice versa), that there is bad blood. And that peace and understanding between PEOPLE is preferred. But to say that the religions are to be protected as some sort of special privileged order, above the question of how can society advance and progress, is as dangerous an idea as the fictions of the religions themselves. Or that individuals advertizing their beliefs are above the fray. We're getting dangerously close to anti-blasphemy censorship.
- Alex McDowell Not sure what to say here. I'm not attacking the lady, or the ideal of peace. I'm simply pointing out that the idea that she has to wear that hajib is a symbol and a symptom of the larger problem.
- Will Sawyer I've never said that they are above the fray. What I am saying is that you have been presented with something positive in the OP, and yet you focus on what she's wearing to the exclusion of her words. I'm an antitheist and I want faith to be eradicated, but it won't be with the type of discourse that you've shown here. It needs more subtlety than a mallet, more understanding, and to be willing to play a long game.
- Alex McDowell I still think the hajib is coercive. And I don't think dancing around it is useful, either.
- Alex McDowell It's not a "mallet". If the hajib is a subtle reminder and advertizement of the religion, and she has the right to use it as such, we have the right (and the responsibility) to point out that it's not an innocent piece of cloth. Until the day when it no longer is.
- Will Sawyer That's fine...and I'm not dancing around the issue. It would be fine to discuss it in a thread about the wearing of hajibs, burkhas etc., but that's not what this thread was about. From how you speak, it would appear that Yasira has nothing to say that you'd want to listen to until she took off her hajib...and that's hardly a good position for a debater to start out at, or for a teacher to expect of their students.
- Will Sawyer Really, are you not? That's not how it appears. Yasira said something and your reply has been, in effect, "well yes, that's all very well, but take that bloody headscarf off when you talk to me if you want me to listen to anything you have to say".
- Alex McDowell And, yes, this thread is about the hajib. As well as peace. We don't speak merely through words. She brings up the question of her religion, and the possibility of coercion by wearing it. The question is if she could have said the same thing, with her face, without the head scarf. Which brings up several questions. Does she have a choice? Did she wear it to prove a larger point? Her protestations of her moderation are just the beginning of the conversation.
- Alex McDowell I did not say that. I said it has a subtle or maybe not so subtle affect on her message.
- Alex McDowell And we still have to get back to the questions of what a "real" Muslim or Christian is. And who's to say. Which is the REAL point of her post.
- Will Sawyer I think you've missed the point entirely. You're just expecting her to talk to your palm until she looks non-religious enough for you. You've decided to give almost all your attention to a detail. Not every comment made by someone wearing a cross or a hajib has to be hijacked into a discussion about possible coercion in the wearing of religious symbols.
- Alex McDowell The detail is the religions. And the power of the religions over free people choosing to live out their lives as they wish. That, I think, was Yasir's main message. As I said, that's just the opening of the conversation.
- Alex McDowell What's a "good" Muslim, and what's a "bad" Muslim. Yasir wants to let us know that she's "one of the good ones". That's to be decided among them. Millions of Muslims all over the world, including some scholars and clerics would say that she's selling out the faith. Millions of others would say the opposite. From where we sit, we see the falsity of the myths to be the heart of the problem. That's not an idea that any of them should be protected from. And one that is germane to the issue. One that is the WHOLE issue.
- Alex McDowell Same thing on the Christian side of the coin. The WBC has their version of reality. The...let's say... Methodists have another view. When all is said and done, their is nothing there to talk about. There is no evidence for the Biblical proposition, and tons against it. But they get their special protections, and status, exemptions, and respect. And power. All for a ghost story. That they can't agree about. And it comes to blows.
- Alex McDowell Well, that certainly makes sense. You've wasted a lot of posting insulting me, and done nothing to explain yourself or your position. Absolutely nothing. You've given me your anger, your vitriol and your time but not a damn bit of reason.
- Tess Chapeau What can i say to someone who assumes all people of a religion are all extremists? It's pointless.
- Alex McDowell That was the other guy. I'm saying all people of religions are victims. Subtle, but you're smart. You should be able to get it.
- Alex McDowell Hey, we can't all be Hemingway. I'm trying to learn the damn thing and put down some ideas. You're pretty damn vicious, aren't you?
Alex McDowell First of all, please review the thread here. One of us put forward an idea and tried to explain it. The other one went immediately into attack and personal insult mode without defending their stance.
Second, the whole idea is about gods. The Islamic god comes from the same roots as the Christian god. The Old Testament. Many theists of many stripes will try to show us a god that is perfect, all loving, and all knowing. Any reading of the bible will show that to be false. As has been said by many better writers than I, that god is a nasty piece of work, jealous, violent, evil, and duplicitous. And any comparison of the bible with actual history or science, or pretty much any human knowledge (knowledge, not magical wishing) shows that god to be impossible.
I will apologize for using a libertarian link. I was doing a quick search, copy, and paste, and could have taken more time to check my sources. I'm not a fan of libertarianism (to say the least).
We both claim to be "liberal". I would imagine that if this hadn't escalated in such vitriol so quickly, we would have found many points of agreement. I'm sorry you feel the need for such attacks.
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